Welcome back to another episode of the Cyber Queens. We are your hosts Maril, Erika, and Nathalie. I'm Maril Vernon, resident red teamer and purple teaming expert. I'm Erika Eakins, your technical salesperson. And I'm Nathalie Baker, all things blue team. Today we are talking about bringing it back to the experience of being females and minorities in cyber and in tech. Today we're gonna be talking about our experiences dealing with toxic and negative mindsets. Some of the ones we've encountered, how we've dealt with them. Recommend some strategies on dealing with them, should you come across them and hopefully empower you to navigate these waters a little bit better. As much progress as we're making as an industry, there are certainly still some persisting mindsets that some people hold. Unfortunately it's just kinda like the MeToo thing. I can point at a woman and say she's probably had a toxic experience with somebody in the workplace. So, yeah. Why don't we start off with pick your favorite, someone pick your favorite. We'll start with that. I'll pick one. One of my favorites is, so since we do work in a male dominated field when you're part of the team, you're actually not always part of the team. For example, this is just me pulling an example outta my hat. They're going out for drinks or a happy hour, and they don't wanna invite you as a woman because they think it's either gonna be HR issues or that they can get reported, or you're just not one of the guys. And that's kind of a double-edged sword one cause it's like, oh, if they don't invite you, they're ostracizing you. And then they're like, "well, you probably wouldn't have fun anyway. We're gonna talk about a bunch of things that you would just find offensive." And it's like you don't necessarily know that, but then when they do invite you, they're like, "great. We had to tag her along." Then you're just a downer Debbie Downer. Completely unfair. Sometimes it is a matter of, did they just forget to extend the invite or are they purposely not inviting you? Cause there's a big difference. Sometimes I feel like there have been times where I've had people that were like, "oh, well we're not gonna invite her. Not because we're not including her, but we just forget that she even exists over there in her own land." And then there have been other times where it's like, oh no, they just purposely did not invite me. They invited like everybody else on the team except for me. Oh, and also ironically is literally everybody else on the team male? Yes.. Weird how that happens. Yeah. Coincidence. And then you can't even say anything cuz you're like, if I ask to be invited along, like, "Hey, can I come too?" You kinda look like that desperate one. And then they're like, oh.. So I understand from their perspective there are people that will report guys for something that's not even really offensive, but they consider offensive. Sometimes men might feel like they have to walk on eggshells, but at the same time, that's putting the woman in a boat with everybody else and stereotyping. You're just basically labeling her. It is like you said, a double-edged sword, that you're darned if you do and darned if you don't. And sometimes it's necessary to be like in that, sometimes some guys, they will take it too far and you're like, "this is seriously a company recorded meeting right now. Like, why are you saying these things? Would you say this any other time? Like this worries me about you being the face of a company, if you're the face of a company or something, because you shouldn't be saying this at all, and you're saying this in the middle of a company recorded meeting." Versus someone you know, just making a joke. Have they built that rapport with you? Because if they've not built that rapport with you, you might react completely different than somebody who's taken the time to get to know you. Then they make a joke and you're just like, "oh yeah, haha, that's funny." And like you laugh along with it because you're not finding it offensive because they're not being offensive with it. Yeah. And it can become like a topic of conversations that you're not there for, right? It's like, "oh, like I couldn't make a joke with Nathalie last week. She got super freaking offended and I don't understand." And everyone's like, "well, I don't have that problem with her. She and I talk shop all the time and we don't have any problems." So it really does come down to the relationship that you build. That just goes to show, not a lot of people care to cultivate those relationships with us either. So they do leave their actions open to interpretation when they don't take the time to cultivate even a professional relationship with us. I don't wanna be labeled just because I'm female. I'm cool. I like sports. I used to be the only girl on my team who could talk about Magic: The Gathering, with my manager. And like, we'd talk about magic cards and I'm like, "yeah, I can hang with the guys." I can hang with hockey. The NHL people will talk to me about hockey and explain it to me like I'm a five year old and I'm like,"dude, I know all of these plays. I know everything about it." And they're like, "oh my God." But football, I know nothing about. I don't know anything. I'm sports illiterate, but one of the ones that I really hate is the one where everybody make women over prove themselves. It's kinda like we are put through the trials way more than other people. We are the only species that thinks the female version of ourselves is the weaker one. Would you be like, "oh, I got bitten by a shark last week, but it was a female shark, so it wasn't that bad." No, like it doesn't matter. But I hate it when like they make us over prove ourselves in the beginning. Like, "oh, you wanna play with the big leagues? You wanna hang out with the big boys? You better be able to keep up on our level." And then you end up doing twice the quota than anyone else does. Then they just expect that, and this is why I hate this, it perpetuates. Because then they just expect that to be your baseline. It's like, "well if you are capable of that, why can't you do it all the time?" And that's how we, as professional females, work ourselves into this toxic mindset we put on ourselves, of constantly having to do more than everyone else. We don't take chill periods and we don't celebrate our wins. We're just like constantly freaked out for our performance, and it's because they made us over prove ourselves to begin with. Well and a lot of the times I'll see that women will get promoted slower than a man. I could have the same qualifications, the same experience, in sales similar like wins and losses. And they do a lot of the times and it's not happening as much anymore, but it's still a problem. A man will get promoted quicker than a woman. And that's where we have to feel like we over prove ourselves. And then sometimes, since we have to over prove ourselves, we become mean to other women. Cuz we're, they're like, I did it and I've had a woman like this, I had to prove myself, so I'm gonna make your life terrible. I know Nathalie has talked about this before too. I believe it was you, Nathalie, where you had a woman that just like was very mean because she had to prove herself or whichever one it was. But you fall into that on either side of it. Well and I've had it to where like I've been harsher of a critic on females that I've interviewed too. And then I had to take a step back and realize myself like,"oh, I don't wanna be that though. Because that's what I had to deal with when I was trying to get my foot in the door. Why do I wanna be like that to somebody else?" And then I've given those legs up. But every time I'd bring somebody on my team that was a female, I already had to take them aside and let them know like,"look, this was not a gift that I gave to you just because you were a woman. This was something that, like, you earned this position fair and square. So you don't have to prove yourself. You don't have to go above and beyond." Because if you're not having those conversations, women are 10 times harder on themselves than what, like, and then they become the "emotional female." When they're disappointed in themselves, they're too emotional for you. Oh, I hate that one too. But before we move on to that one, it just goes back to like what Erika was saying, it's not just men who do these things to us, these toxic things. Sometimes women do these toxic things to each other. Yeah. They're like, "you're not gonna come in and have it all easy when I had to bust my butt to get here. You're gonna do it just as hard as I did it to prove you deserve it." This is BS. It shouldn't be that way because It shouldn't be that way.. This woman came in before you It could have been like years later that you came along and you're like,"what did I do to deserve this?" And I get the way that person would feel like I worked hard. I'm not gonna let anybody go easy. It's not about easy. The woman you're hiring might actually be smarter than you and that's why you're hiring her. Cuz she's great. You shouldn't make her suffer. We need to support and not tear people down because that's how we excel. Yeah. It's, you're paying the price of progress, basically. But so are millennials, like millennials who ask for all these things that we didn't get. Gen Z is waltzing on in, getting everything they want out of their organizations, and we're just over here like, "what the heck?" But we can't hold that against them. We can't be like, "well, you don't deserve unlimited PTO, because I didn't get that when I started." We just have to suck it up and move on, keep moving forward. But being the emotional female is another one. I actually was in a meeting just like last week where I brought an idea to somebody and I thought it was really well thought out, and I was asking how to go about helping me execute it. And rather than have that conversation, we had the conversation debating the merit of the project. Like why it was even value added, why we were doing it, and why we're doing it this way. I didn't really wanna have that conversation. I was like, "okay, well all you're doing is pointing out problems to me. If you see a problem with my approach, then give me a solution. But all this pro-," "-well, I don't really have an answer for you." Okay. So what is it you're saying? Like, we shouldn't do this, or we should do it differently? Yeah. I don't really have a good answer, but all I can say is like, I don't see the point of doing that. I got so frustrated. I wanted to cry. Like I wanted to cry on the call. In front of everybody who was on the call, I had be like, "okay, well why don't we all just take this and ruminate on it and come up with some ideas and we'll do a brainstorm next week." But it's cuz I was literally about to cry because I get very frustrated when someone just points out a problem and doesn't give me a solution. Like, you're not helping, you're just making more problems. If you don't like what I'm doing, then tell me how to fix it or shut up. Yeah, Get out of my way. Yeah. I had to very quickly realize if I didn't get off that call, I was gonna be the emotional female, but it's because I'm so passionate about the work. Well, that's tough. What, and I take it very personally. I take my work very personally. But it definitely happens. It definitely happens to females everywhere. If you cry in a meeting.. Well, this is what I get. So, you guys know me. The audience doesn't know me that well. I'm very direct. I challenge people, meaning I'm not confrontational, but I will challenge you and ask you questions and kind of probe. That, I am told most of the time I'm being super aggressive, and I'm being moody because I question things. And this is part of sales. You're supposed to probe and find things out and ask different things so you can get answers. But when I do it to, like my sales manager, and this doesn't mean my current employer, but in the past, like my sales manager and my coworkers, and I ask why and I this and I that.

I'm being aggressive, I need to calm down because I'm overreacting. But my coworker, John Doe, he does the same thing and he's a winner. Yeah. Have you gotten the PMS comment? Oh, are you PMSing? Yes. Is it that time? Is it Erika's time of the month? People have just looked at me like,"is it that time of the month?" And I'm like, "no, I'm holding you accountable." Me holding somebody accountable is me being aggressive. What? Hate that. I hate that. For us, I've gotten the same thing. You're either the super assertive like female or you're like the super whiny, emotional, annoying female. I used to have a manager who like, just is an emotional person. She's like, "we're not even discussing anything super heavy, but I might cry on this phone call. It's just because I'm a very emotional person, so I hope it doesn't bother you." And I'm like, "no, that's fine." She just would cry at like the drop of a hat. She couldn't help it. She has to preface that with people and also she has a very hard time succeeding because of that reason. People are just like, "oh God, we don't wanna take on that." But she's actually the most caring and like loyal person ever. But do they see that? No. No, because it, it looks bad, cuz dudes don't cry, it's party. Yes. There's crying in baseball. There's no crying in baseball. Yes. No crying in cyber But at least she recognizes that though. And she tells people why is she emotional? So she has feelings, who cares? Actually, when she started doing that, like she started like having an easier time in meetings because people weren't just shutting her down and discounting her and like turning off her voice basically. It kind of forced, now you're being the D-I-C-K, if you don't lean in and listen because she's already told us that this might happen. I know we're trying to change company cultures to be more people-centric and empathetic, but it's still an uphill battle. But she shouldn't even have to get to the point where she has to explain herself. A guy wouldn't have to do that. No, he wouldn't. But a guy would also be heard out for their technical opinion or for their opinion in general as well. And there's a lot of times where like I've had to fight tooth and nail with a software developer. We were on a call with our mutual client and I literally was having to explain to him how I wrote my script, what my script was doing, step by step. No guy would've had to explain their script, what their script did, step by step to a software developer, that is just as mutually on a call with a client as you are, on a call with a client. Like you're both client facing at this point. I literally had to be like, "oh yeah, and my script is fixing what your script should have done in the first place, by the way." Like no guy would have to go through that. That's correct. They wouldn't, yeah, that's another one. Like the whole just suck it up and take it like, "hey, so and so gave me a hard time on that call.""Yeah. Can't you just deal with it? Can't you just suck it up? Can't you just bury it and deal with it? Do we really need to make this a problem?" It's like a female does feel brave enough to speak up finally, and then they're told, "is this really a problem? Do we really need to make this a thing? Can't you get over it?" I don't speak up a lot of the times because of that, because anytime I have, it's been dismissed, in a nice way. They think they're being nice because they're not being rude. They're talking to me in a nice tone and "we're trying to help you." And it's like, "no, I'm speaking up and you guys incur that. And then when I do, you put me down." So that's why women don't come forward. And it's not too bad, just take it. So this guy was, or person was being a complete moron or jerk to me and he would never talk like that to one of my male coworkers. But I'm supposed to just suck it up. No way. I throw it back at them and I'm like, oh yeah. And by the way, here's your mistake and your mistake again, and another one of your mistakes because like, I'm not gonna sit there and take it, but I'll make you think I'm taking it and dealing with it in that moment. Then when it comes full circle, you're not gonna realize it until you've been rolled over by the train of my whole fact smack down. But see, when you hold people accountable, I get called out for being aggressive and I make people cry apparently because I hold you accountable for your job. Then I'm getting talked to because I called them out for their shortcomings, and it shouldn't have to be that way. Erika, quit picking on boys. Are they being emotional? Yeah, exactly. Then when they get emotional, it's well because Erika made me cry. Erika did X, Y, and Z, but if you do that, you're just crying wolf in the corner. In this situation, I was sticking up for my customer because implementation and kicking off the implementation was taking a really long time. And it was totally, the company that I worked for at the time, it was our fault. I was talking to some of my technical operations people, or my support people, and I said, "this is unacceptable. This is how long the customer's been waiting." I listed all the facts and because I said those things, I was told that I was aggressive. I made the gentleman cry and that I'm just straight up mean. I didn't even say anything wrong. I just, I stated all the facts and I was holding their team accountable because they dropped the ball. And I have a customer that's been trying to get his implementation going for two months because they're out of the office and forgot to do something. We don't have anybody backing that up. It was a horrible situation. I actually got written up for that because I made somebody cry, and it literally was just a stating facts and saying that this is not fair to the customer. I cannot roll my eyes back in my head far enough, Erika, like it's not physically possible. God, Well, excuse me for being a salesperson that's customer-centric because my customer is my number one focus. Just saying, yeah. Excuse you for having the facts to back up what you were saying. It's not like you were just speaking out your rear end. You actually had the facts there to back it all up, that's why they cried. I guess that inter-personally too though. Like people that I'm arguing with, they'll be like, "you just bring stuff up and throw it in my face." And I'm like, "I'm literally stating facts. I can't help it if the facts make you sad about yourself." But that's when I am being aggressive. I won't lie. You got called out, you don't know how to react to it. You dropped the ball, own it. I don't understand. Now, in a similar situation, it wasn't exactly the same, but similar, one of my male counterparts. He was not talked to about the same way he handled it. Yeah. It's a double entendre right there.

have you guys ever got the whole "Oh, she played the girl card. Oh yeah. She's just playing the girl card." Yep, I get it all the time. The company I currently work for is really great. They love me, but I'm just pulling my woman card and I'm just using this, my looks and I'm using this and that to get meetings and I don't even do anything. I just sit there and I'm like, that well, kind of salespeople just get us in the door and then we bring the technical people in. But I use my female card to"blackmail somebody to make them take a meeting with me." But really the customer just agreed because I sent them an e-mail. What? I've actually gotten that feedback on The Cyber Queens. People have come to me and been like, oh, like how's the podcast going? Like, it's going really great so we hear. People are telling us they love it, the metrics are good. We just posted a big post celebrating a bunch of our wins and they're like,"yeah, it seems to be doing really good. It's because you're a girl." Anything you do as a girl, like people are just gonna eat it up because you're a girl. And I'm like or we're just doing a good freaking job. We identified relevant topics we're delivering it in an intelligent way and like we have a good strategy, but no, automatically, the only thing we can attribute our success to is because we're girls. Well, and I get told that because we're attractive that's why people listen to our podcast. And I've had other salespeople tell me that's why you get meetings cuz you're hot, you have blonde hair and boobs. And I'm like, that has nothing to do with it. Cuz people have basically hung up on me and told me to go away like every single day of my sales career. So don't tell me I'm just a little bit more strategic and you can't handle that. Actually, I would say the opposite. I'd say they probably stereotype you for being an idiot when they see the blonde hair and they do the good clothes and they're like, "oh, this chick is obviously Cyber Barbie. She actually obviously doesn't know anything that she's about to talk about." Actually they do. I, so in the very beginning of my career, and it still happens today, they'll take a meeting with me and my coworkers would say, "oh, it's because you're hot, it's so easy for girls." And I'm like, "no, I actually, tried to contact this person a bazillion times. And then I walk in the door and the customer's like, "oh yeah, we're kicking this vendor out." And then we sit down and start talking shop and they're like, "oh my God, I actually have to do something." Darn it. I have to use my brain today. What about you, Nathalie? You were a SOC manager previously. How did that affect your "girl card"? I think a lot of my coworkers were kind of afraid to even go there with me on that one. At that point I had proven myself. Because you were the aggressive female Because I was the aggressive female, that could kick their butts. Just like leading up to that, not just that position, but leading up and getting there? Did you ever hear that? Getting up in there, yeah. I had a file a complaint, like a PHRC complaint against a previous employer. As I was still employed with them, but it was a female employer, mind you. So it was again, the female that was, the problem for me. It's a female thing. So I filed a sexism complaint because she hired somebody who had less certifications than I had and literally were getting paid $6 more an hour than I was making. Separate debate. Pay issue. And then I was the one that was fixing all the server related problems. So like I again, just did not understand. I was like, I'm the one that's keeping your system up and running. Like don't think this is now like the minute it you bring it up in a meeting, like Oh yeah, the one time I did have to file that. And it ended up being against the woman and everybody's just like dead silent. And you're like, well, no, like this is just the previous experience that I've had. Cause I felt that I was stereotyped against because I didn't get the promotion that I deserved. When I'd been working my butt off for it and some other guy who had less technical certifications and less technical experience than I had, was coming in and just getting the money. Did you ask her, did you ask her why? Like, why he got the job? I. I didn't ask her why he got the job. Cause I never questioned why he got the job. It was more so why didn't you promote from within? And I was literally just told, just suck it up. Oh, there it is. Suck it. One of those other topics, Maril. I know. I know you've run into this, like you, you came into the industry three years ago and you've excelled. Is your woman card being pulled? Oh yeah. Everyone's like, "oh, it's really great that you've risen so far and so fast, but honestly, people only listen to you because you're a girl. It doesn't matter what you say because you're a girl, people are gonna listen to it." And I'm like, "well, are you ignoring me cuz I'm a female? Or are people only paying attention because I'm a female? Which is it today? I can't decide." Oh, not that you're intelligent, not that you're intelligent just cause you're a girl Or capable or that I had to pass a lot of technical interviews to get the opportunities that I had. They didn't just let me onto a red team because I looked good and I was the personality hire. I had to be able to contribute something. So, yeah, I get that one constantly. Given that we do encounter so many of these, obviously, what are some of your guys' favorite strategies for dealing with them? How do you counteract these mindsets and do you deal with them head on? Do you call it the elephant in the room? Do you go more subtle social warfare? What is it you do? I'm definitely subtle social warfare. Hundred percent. You would be Miss Deny Everything t-shirt. You definitely are. There's been a few situations where I had to, tread lightly, but normally I hit it head on because it's gonna bother me until it gets out there. And I do have to think strategically on how I'm going to say things or how I'm gonna write an email because email tone is actually a thing. Because I have been told that I'm super abrasive, but it's usually head on for me. And people end up respecting it, but they don't like it at the time. They end up respecting it later. I take the strategy of first, I'll type out an email with everything I want to say. I'm all angry typing, and then I leave the email in draft for a day or two. Then I come back and read it and I say,"okay, that made me feel better, but is that really gonna get me to my end goal?" I'm logic my way through it. I ask myself what is my ideal end goal? And is this gonna get me there? I could make myself feel better or I could get what I want without you even realizing it. So, I tend to do the same. I tend to confront these things head on. I actually had to have a one-to-one one time where I sat down with someone I worked with, a gentleman, who was undercutting me to other program managers and other stakeholders and other people, and say, do you honestly think I don't add value? No. Do you honestly think I don't know how to do my job? No. Then I need you to have my back. If anyone came to me, even if you completely dropped the ball, I would pretend like we totally had it on lock and everything was fine, and then I would get with you after. But I would have your back and I really hope that you're gonna have mine from here on out, or we're gonna fail together. We're gonna fail together or fly together. So you can treat me as dead weight or you can treat me like an equal. He was like, you're absolutely right. And I was like, thank you. And we've been so harmonious ever since then that everyone's like, "wow, these two used to hate each other. And now they're out there killing it." I think it's way more effective to bring people into your cult of personality and convert them into allies, rather than make enemies. But some people just wanna be an enemy no matter what you do. When that happens, I deal with that. They're miserable. They're miserable with their entire life. So , you can't change that. Well and a lot of times I've had those guys who like thought that they were the alpha personality, and then I kind of came in and was like, "but here are all the things we need to figure out. If you wanna be the alpha personality, that's fine. You go to your side of it, you go do your alpha thing, I'll do mine. But at the same time, we need to figure out the solution to the problem, and that's the bottom line. So if you're not willing to figure out what the solution is to this problem, we're not gonna get anywhere with this. And a lot of times those guys have come back around and they've been some of my best friends in this industry. Because I've changed their perception about women in this industry and about like how to work with other types of cultures and other types of people in this industry. When you have an alpha female come to an alpha male, cuz I'm an alpha female, one hundred percent. They try to clash with me and then they realize that they need to be my ally because we actually become really good friends or, we get things done just like Maril stated. They're your best friends sometimes, but Alpha female meeting Alpha male. That's interesting to watch. Oh, it's so much fun. I'll say there are certain people who need to be the alpha and like I'll totally take charge if no one else will, but if someone else is willing to do it, I'm really good at being an active follower. It's like one of the things I was awarded for in bootcamp was being an excellent active follower, like the vice or the deputy. And if someone needs that, then that's all good, if that's what fulfills you, I can just work in the back, like in, in the wings. I don't care. I just want the project to get done. I just think that it's one of those things where sometimes you do have to dress people down. You have to start out and let them know, listen, I can meet you on this level if you want to, but wouldn't we be happier if we didn't? But you do have to kind of prove yourself and like whip without those teeth a little bit and show them how, just how capable you are and how you're not to be messed with before they'll back off. It's just one of those things that we have to do. We do have to over prove ourselves just a little bit. And then I'm like, now can we all relax? Or I get that all the time at bars. Guys will be like, "I bet I could out drink you." I'm like, "God, I hope so, but do you really wanna find out or can I just agree that probably you could out drink me?" Speaking of the bar comments, when I was competing in body building, cuz I'm not competing now, guys would start fights with me. They would not start fights with dudes. They would start a fight with me and I'm like, "I'm just standing here." So, okay. Yeah, they're like, look at you trying to be all hard. You're trying to be one of us. You're like, no, I'm not. I'm literally not. I'm just standing here. I'm just chilling. Okay let's fight. I'll get a chair. I fight dirty. Another strategy I had to escape that note taker mentality was that I would show up having done more than I needed to. I would show up like, "yeah, I did do all these notes and these outlines and these things that you asked me to do. But I took it a step further. I also coded some things and I created all this, and I made all these artifacts. So I basically done the thing and if you want me just to drive it, I can do that from here on now, or I can give it to you if you want." Like, here's my project I completed. Because sometimes it, they won't give you the chance to prove your technical prowess. You have to do that yourself. Yes. I don't mind being one of the few people that are taking notes, but if I'm the only person in the room that's taking notes: I am not your secretary. I am not the person that's just going to take notes for you, so that you don't have to take notes. If we're both taking notes so that we can make sure that if anything is missed, the other person maybe got it. That's perfectly fine. But I am not your secretary. I'm not your note taker. Unless you have for whatever reason missed the meeting because maybe you need PTO or whatnot, I'll give you my notes to help you out cuz we're a team, but that's different. I am not your secretary and I'm very adamant about that. About we are all importing into our notes, into the feed so that we all have similar notes so we can all compare and contrast our notes. It is not one person's job to take notes. Exactly. I agree with you, a hundred percent. I don't do it. I'll turn on my phone and record and then I'll go back and take my notes because I can't read my own notes later on. People will be like, "oh, can you give that to me?" I'm like, "no, you should have been paying attention." Now that we've talked about some of the things we've encountered and how we've dealt with it let's bring it back to a positive note by talking about some of the things and mindsets that cyber does do well. What are some of the positives that we've seen in cyber? Mentorship. People that are willing to mentor those who are, trying to come up in and in through the trenches, navigating that. I think that's very beneficial, very positive. I've personally mentored quite a few people on different levels and different aspects as well. It's not just been about how do you get into tech, it's more so like, how do you navigate a very male-dominated field. Yeah. And what are some different techniques that you can employ? So I've mentored people who were going into some really cool fields actually that had nothing to do with cyber, but I was able to give them different insight into how to navigate certain things. So I think mentorship's really important. Finding a really strong mentor. Cyber does that good. Cyber, I will also say is good at gate break. Lately, there's a lot of people who aren't knowledge keeping so much. They're willing just to give away everything they know and give away the value. And tell you exactly how they did it, exactly how they upskilled, how they trained, how they landed a job. No one is over here just like guarding the secrets. Success is pie and more for you means less for me. A lot of people are trying to share that wealth and pay it forward, which is so awesome. I might get, some daggers thrown at me for saying this one because I am gonna say this, most departments within an organization are very siloed, but my thing that I think we do really well is teamwork. So not everywhere, not all departments, but especially within your department or with sales and professional services, the teamwork that I've seen in the cyber field is among some of the best that I've ever seen. And that I've heard from other people that are outside of the industry and it took a long time to get there. But I really do think that we've come a long way with working as teams and just having that overall, unified front. I agree completely. It's a community. We are much more of a community now more so than we used to be. The one thing left I would like to see in our cyber industry is less of an us versus them mentality when it comes to security teams and other teams. I would like for it to be a mutual collaborative effort. That's me and my little ideal team world. Good luck! I know I'm working on it. One mindset at a time Erika. You don't see as much of that anymore. It's making a turn between red and blue teams as well. It makes me very happy. Okay with that, we're gonna wrap up this episode. We will do final takeaways. Ladies, anything you want to say on negative mindsets, positive mindsets, advice to leave them with? Go for it. My final takeaway for this topic and, related to cyber, learn how to react and how to handle yourself because you don't wanna get that emotional female or, just have a label on you. learn from your mistakes. Grow with it. Because in cyber, you're always gonna learn something, so you'll always constantly get better and just try not to take things personally. It will get swept under the rug eventually at the in, in the moment. It's gonna be the worst thing ever. But I just need you guys to keep trying and just don't back down, but don't back down in a, don't be rude. Yeah. Yeah. That's such a great one. Don't necessarily roll over and like let them walk all over you, but like, learn how to disagree professionally. Learn how to stand up for yourself professionally. We as females do take things very personally. We take insults to our work personally. We feel like yes. If you criticize one thing about our work, we are complete failures as people. Just fire me. Don't fire me. I'll just quit. I suck. You deserve better. So, yeah, my hair looks bad. I would echo that. I would just say, make sure that you stand up for yourself and make sure you stand up for yourself tactfully. Make sure that you don't necessarily react in the moment, but try to str strategically respond. That's gonna be mine as well. That was a great one, can't even follow that up with anything. Thanks for that. Nathalie. My final takeaway is going to be don't just because you are a female or just because you are the not the norm. Maybe you are a minority hire, or whatever you wanna call it. Don't let yourself feel that you have to prove yourself. You got there because you deserve to be there. I saw this on a TikTok and it like literally changed my whole imposter syndrome and it turned it around, "if you weren't ready for the opportunity that has presented itself to you, the opportunity would not be there for you to take." Ooh. That's awesome. I like that. I like that. Well, on that note, screw it. We're not getting better than that. This has been another episode of the Cyber Queens. Thanks so much for coming and listening and hanging out with us. We love having you here. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe. Also so many of you are coming to us in DMs and in person telling us how much you love the content, but we would really love it if you would tell other people how much you love the content or comment or share. That would mean the most to us. It's absolutely free to support us. Absolutely cost you nothing, to give us a share and tell your friends and family if you're finding the information valuable. With that, we love you. We can't wait to see you next week. And big change coming soon. Anyway we'll see you next week. Thanks for hanging out with us.