Maril Vernon: 0:16

Welcome back to another episode of The Cyber Queens. We are your host, Maril, Erika, and Nathalie. I'm Maril Vernon, resident red teamer and offensive expert.

Erika Eakins: 0:25

Hi, my name is Erika Eakins. I'm the technical sales rep in the cyber field.

Nathalie Baker: 0:30

And I'm Nathalie Baker, the Blue team extraordinaire.

Maril Vernon: 0:34

Today we are talking about a topic that is gonna be a little sensitive, a little triggering, a little more social rant than it is technical topic. We just wanna put out as a disclaimer front and foremost, all of the opinions that we hold our own. They do not represent our employers. The three of us in any way, shape or form. Everything that we are about to discuss is how we feel personally as women outside of our full-time roles. With that being said, today we're talking about how women tend to be in the workforce and how certain types of leadership can tend to take advantage of that. And it results in holding women back, women and minorities back. Really what brought this topic up for us was that I realized that women like me and women like my mom will kill themselves to overwork for their employer. They feel they don't deserve the job so bad and have to continually earn the job or continually prove that they deserve to stay there so bad that us over proving ourselves becomes the standard for our work. So we'll stay later, we'll try harder, we'll give 2000% as much effort as someone else, and that just becomes what people expect of us. How we need to stop doing that to ourselves.

Nathalie Baker: 1:45

You have to think of it, especially if there's other women that are in your field or in your department, you're also setting the standard for them and how much they have to work to prove that they're worthy. If you as, especially as like a manager, if you're having to prove that you're worthy of the position that you hold. Then they feel that they have to prove that they're worthy of the positions they hold, and it's a trickling effect, and it's very toxic for an entire department.

Erika Eakins: 2:13

It is, and the sales side of it. This isn't blaming men for anything, so I'm just gonna throw that out there. Literally, I could have the same exact experience, the same education as a male counterpart and he has chosen for a promotion or to go do something different or even to get the job over myself. Again, that's not blamed. That is something that I've actually experienced. Also in sales, if I'm at 1000%, it's okay for John Doe to be at 200% because he's ramping or he's doing this, he's doing that. But I have to over prove myself. That again, is not blaming. That is actually what happens. I work harder, I work longer, and I do better than somebody who does 20%.

Maril Vernon: 3:01

Yeah. And to them, and like you said, that's normal. It's like, "oh, he's got one prospect, but he's definitely gonna close it. But where's your pipeline? Where's your three times the amount of leads you need to actually close sales?" And it's like, "well wait, why do I have to do that? And someone else doesn't have to do that. That's not fair." I wish that wasn't such a consistent thing in cyber. But cuz I've seen that in sales from when I used to work in medical device sales. But I do see it in cyber too. It's like, oh, he's spending three straight days writing up his three findings from an operation. Whereas I'm expected to turn out like all eight of mine, plus a risk matrix, plus the executive debrief or the executive outbreak from the beginning, plus the introduction. Plus get all the tools that we use and all the links and all. It's just assumed that we'll do more because we condition them to think that you can expect more of us. In my career, I had to learn to throttle down. My dad told me a story. He was like, "Maril, I was a contractor and I was just slaying it, right? I was coming in and accomplishing things in half the time. They were like, listen, you're a contractor and we wanna keep you on for the whole contract, but we can't if there's no work for you to do, cuz you've blown through it all. So we suggest that you take your time." And I was like, "Wow, you're right."

Nathalie Baker: 4:11

I did that in my internship. My internship was supposed to be a six month long internship, and they expected it to take me six months to complete an entire project, and in two months, two and a half months, I had that entire project completed and they were trying to find work for me to do. That ended up being like inventorying things. That's literally what I had to do because I completed my project way ahead of schedule what they were expecting. Cause I had to learn a whole new like technology. I had to learn how to script in PowerShell. And they were like, "it's gonna take her six months." And it took me two and a half to get everything pulled and learn the whole how to script and everything. They were like, "Yeah, now we need you to go do inventory." I was like, "Am I being punished?"

Erika Eakins: 4:55

Have I been demoted?

Maril Vernon: 4:58

See, but doesn't that say something that they were literally trying to find work to keep you on, but because that work was beneath you and you thought you'd killed it on this project, you're like, "Wow, I'm being punished for not having done something good. I must have messed up somewhere." Why do we do that? Why?

Erika Eakins: 5:13

No. Well, and Black Hat is a good example of what I'm about to say to you. Marketing is at the booth. They have other technical people, whatever product owners, they always want me at the booth. They don't make the guys on my team go to the booth. Because I wanna walk around and network, Black Hat/Defcon, I wanna go be free, meet with customers, but they want me at the booth. In the industry, they call it "the booth babe." That's the clean version of it. And they want me there and I attract the people, but yet you still think that I'm not as smart as John Doe over here. That's another stigma that I hate about the industry.

Maril Vernon: 5:51

Yeah. And it's like, "well, great. So how did Black Hat go?" Erika's like, "I worked three 8 hour shifts at the booth and da-," "well, where are your leads? Why don't you have them?" Because I wasn't allowed to leave and go talk to my freaking people. Tom over there comes back with 10 leads and they're all texting him and emailing,"hey, had so much fun with you at Def Con. Yeah, let's do some business." I told you it's 80% relationship and 20% business. Yeah."Well, he's more valuable at the bar talking to people.."

Erika Eakins: 6:15

That's not true! I take customers axe throwing, and I hang out. I work around guys. It's a male dominated industry and you learn how to adapt to it. I don't like that I am expected to do that. I'll offer, sometimes if I want to, but I'm more effective networking and beep bopping around. They're not gonna put Matt at the fricking booth cuz he's better talking to customers and at the bar drinking. It's crazy.

Maril Vernon: 6:41

Yeah. And it's a double standard.

Erika Eakins: 6:44

Well, you were just at a conference Nathalie, were you expected to sit at the booth the whole time? You're not in sales

Nathalie Baker: 6:49

We didn't have a booth there.

Maril Vernon: 6:51

You were an attendee?

Nathalie Baker: 6:52

So I was there to, yes, attend and learn. Here's the thing is when you go to a conference, you're expected to go do all the social things, get your company's name out there, because even though we didn't have a booth, part of my job is still to make sure that we have the sales to acquire the team that we have and keep the team that we have. So we make sure that we do acquire sales and that we do put a good face on our company's brand. So when I was at the conference, I was still networking. I was still asking people like,"how does this tool help us? How does this tool actually function? And where does it sit at in our stack of tools that we already have?" Because if we already have a tool that does the same thing, it does us no good to acquire a new tool that's going to do no good. So a lot of that I was not ever expected to sit at a booth because when I go to conferences, I'm either presenting or I'm learning.

Erika Eakins: 7:46

Yeah. They send you for like your CPE credits, right? To get your like education credits, right?

Maril Vernon: 7:51

Yeah. Continuing professional education CPEs.

Nathalie Baker: 7:54

You can, yeah. I don't ever do those. I just take a new test instead.

Maril Vernon: 7:59

I'm not gonna lie, I let my Sec+ expire. Like I've done so many CPEs, I could've just maintained it and I was like, do I even care?

Erika Eakins: 8:05

Well, that makes sense that they're paying for you to go to the conference on the technical side. When you look at it, it's not just sales, right? So I know that sometimes the booth is full of the female marketing reps. Where's all the dudes?? Maril Vernon: The booth bunny It is, but like how many times have we heard that? Like, "Erika, I know you wanna move up. I know you wanna be in management. I know you wanna go talk to the CISOs or whatever, but we just, you're so good. We just need you to stay where you are. We just need you to help out the team." Then they make you feel guilty. They prey on, no offense, I don't know if men have this, but they prey on something we call female guilt. Where we're like, "Oh my God, you're right. I'm sacrificing the good of the team for my own selfish motivations." And you're like, "I'll stay at the booth. I feel so bad I won't even ask next year." And it's like, Yeah, why can't you just, why can't you just help the team? They use our motherly instincts against us.

Nathalie Baker: 9:00

Yes they do. Cause like everybody in my department, I always tell them like you're my cyber kids. Because I don't have kids, I have animals. But they still use that against you and they're like, "well how dare you be so selfish for your own need and you're leading a team." You're like, "Bro, I'm being selfish so that I can give back to my team. How is that not okay?" How is it not okay for me to stand up? Why do I have to feel like a brat for standing up for myself at all.

Erika Eakins: 9:42

You shouldn't. You shouldn't. Well, and don't get me wrong, men are held back too. If you're a top performer on a sales team and you wanna move up, they actually will not ever look at you for a promotion because they wanna keep you at that level cuz they wanna keep making money for themselves and that doesn't,

Maril Vernon: 9:56

You're killing it. Please stay there and keep killing it.

Erika Eakins: 10:01

Another example is you don't talk to John about X, Y, Z in this sort of tone, or you don't have talks with him weekly about that kind of stuff. Why do I have to get lectured? And again, my current employer's amazing, so this has nothing to do with them. I get these special talks and things that I have to do extra to show my weekly productivity because you don't think I'm doing what I'm doing, even though I'm above a hundred percent of my quota. You know what I mean? So it's in the sales, it's really tough because I've been put, I've been taken out of a fully revenue generating territory that I built after a year and then put into a new vertical that the company wanted to go start. And I go from making my commissions to zero. But everybody else was asked, all the guys were asked if they wanted to make that move. Starting the new team. They were asked, but I was not. So you think that I'm

Maril Vernon: 10:57

Oh you were told, voluntold.

Erika Eakins: 10:58

I was just put there. I didn't even know until it happened. It was a loss of revenue for me because I was already making my commissions and everything and I was killing it. And then they put me in SLED. Well actually state and local government only, not even education. If you are a sales rep, you have to have education and government. And they're like, "Well, we're just gonna give you slough for one state. This guy, he's gonna take all the K through 12 and another state." And I'm like, "Why? Like what? Why can I have that?""Well, you're go, you're a builder." And then they try to use my strengths against me because I'm very strong at building territories.

Maril Vernon: 11:37

Why is this beyond you?

Nathalie Baker: 11:38

That makes me so mad. It makes me so mad. Because you're a builder. Why does that matter?

Maril Vernon: 11:45

So you have to always be building. You can't just be enjoying the thing that you've built?

Nathalie Baker: 11:50

Yeah, exactly.

Erika Eakins: 11:52

As the sales rep that I am, I'm not a BDR, so I don't go and set appointments or I'm not a new business rep. I do everything from the first call to close to managing the relationship. I'm a full sales cycle rep, and okay, I'm great at building, so you're giving me a reason to move up, but you're actually cutting my income by 80%. In that instance I lost 80% of my income because my salary was only 20% and I was used to being up here high in pay. I'm not saying I depend on my commissions, cuz that's never what you should do, but I was used to making this large over half a million dollars a year. And then you put me into something you wanna build with no way of how you're gonna do it. By the way, you can't manage government accounts unless you have lobbyists in the field and we didn't have any contract vehicles to get to these government contracts, or accounts. It was insane. And that is toxic because I was not even asked because I'm a threat. I was actually a threat to that manager at the time that I was gonna take his job. I didn't even want it. I was making more than him. As a sales rep, if you make more than your boss, that's great, but why did you stick me there? You ask everybody else. Sorry, that's toxic. Because you think you can.

Maril Vernon: 13:11

Okay, and let me guess if that territory fails, it's because you couldn't hack it.

Erika Eakins: 13:16

And then I get fired.

Maril Vernon: 13:17

Not because it was difficult, not bec-

Nathalie Baker: 13:18

And it becomes your performance problem because of their lack of leadership. Your lack of leadership does not constitute my performance failure, that does not equivalate. If you didn't have the foresight as my leadership, to know that this and this need to be fixed, and to address it with me before a performance review, at the end of the day, that's on you as my leader to not have that foresight. That's not on me as the performer that's trying to make sure that everything stays running and smoothly going, that's on you.

Maril Vernon: 13:50

Yeah.

Erika Eakins: 13:51

So one, one thing that I wanna jump over to is, Nathalie, you and I had a conversation. You're the SOC manager, there's other managers in your company and you are never invited to go out with them or to network with them on the level because you're a female. I told you, I bet you it's because they think that they can't say certain things around you.

Nathalie Baker: 14:12

For me, I don't think that it's necessarily, that they think that they can't say things around me because I was in the Army, like I have worse mouth than half of those managers do. When it comes down to it like, my potty mouth, it comes out. I'm very spicy. So I don't think it's necessarily that. I just think that because I'm the woman, they're less likely, they just forget that I'm even there and because I'm just working all the time and I'm just continually working, but then it makes them feel like I don't wanna be a part of their group. And I'm like, "Well, I'm never invited to be a part of your group, so why would I want to be a part of your group, when I'm not invited? I don't want to impose myself on you. I want a genuine invite." So I don't think it is necessarily intentional that they are doing it because they're worried that I'll go run back to HR and say, "Oh, so and so said this, and this." Because I've never done that. It's more so them not understanding that if you want me to be involved in the conversation, you need to invite me in because I'm not going to invite myself. I have other people I can have other conversations with.

Erika Eakins: 15:26

If you were a guy though, would it be different? And that's toxic. Again, I'm not placing blame, but that's a toxic environment because management, I'm not saying they have to include you, but management should all be unified. You know what I mean? So if you were a guy, would it be different?

Maril Vernon: 15:41

It can be benign neglect too. It's not even like malicious, it's just like, "oh well we just assume you wouldn't wanna come hang out with us and hear us talk about a bunch of guy stuff. Do what we do." But that's inherent bias. It's like, "why not? Why is it guy stuff you're talking about and not just work stuff? I can commiserate on work stuff." That is where the bias comes into play.

Nathalie Baker: 15:59

It's also like you wanna talk about guy stuff? Like I talk about more guy stuff with my chick friends and these guys do with themselves. Like I talk about wrestling all the time because that's one of my big things that I love watching wrestling, like high school wrestling. I'm very much a tomboy, so it's like I could have genuine interest in your conversation if you just pull me in.

Maril Vernon: 16:26

Yeah, but these are also biases that they foster against ourselves. It's like that whole paradox people are talking about where if a job description asks for 10 things and a female doesn't have those 10 things, she won't apply. Because she's thinking,"I'm not gonna make it. I don't have everything they want." But a guy comes along and is saying,"Oh, I might only have two of those things, but screw it, whatever. I was gonna take my chances," and he'll probably get it because they respect like the initiative and the ambition to try. That's why I'm trying to tell more women. Yeah. I'm like, "have that big energy. Bring it with you. Tell them exactly who you are and what you bring," and someone had to tell me that once too though. I wasn't gonna apply for the pen tester job, the first one I ever got because I'm like, "I don't have any of that," but like, it doesn't matter. They're like, "Maril, a man wouldn't care. A man would do it anyway and he'll probably get it and he's just as unqualified as you. Why not try?" And I'm like, "you're right. Okay. Why not try? That's valid." And I remember like one positive managing experience I had when I first got to the red team that I worked at Zoom under my leader, Andy. Andy, I'm going to put you on blast. You're awesome. I was overworking again. I wanna prove that I belong here. I either made or didn't make this job by the skin of my teeth. I'm gonna prove to you guys that I belong here with you. I did so good at that, that he was like,"Maril I misjudged your capabilities. I thought you were a junior. You're more of a mid. I am so sorry." He was like, "we're giving you a raise without a promotion. It's not title promotion, but we're giving you a raise. And I don't want you to think that means you have to do more." He was like, "You were already doing the work and we just misassessed you for being paid at that level. So please leave your work the same, do all the things you've been doing, but just know that I feel bad that I didn't assess you properly to compensate you for that." So he literally came to me and said, I know you're gonna think you have to work harder. You don't. You can work the same. I promise.

Nathalie Baker: 18:14

That's leadership. That's excellent leadership right there. They see that you're doing more than what you're actually being paid, and they came to you and said, "instead of like you eventually feeling underpaid and under-recognized, we're now going to recognize you in advance. And guess what? You just keep doing the same thing you've been doing because you've already earned it in your work ethic and your work quality."

Maril Vernon: 18:38

Of course I worked harder, even though he told me not to, but like it just felt nice. It was lovely. So you know, there are those good managers out.

Erika Eakins: 18:44

There are for sure.

Maril Vernon: 18:45

So some strategies you can do to combat this kind of thing, because again, some of it is self-sabotage women put on themselves. We don't think we're good enough, we continually think we'll get fired if we don't do enough. Like that TikTok Amber put out, she's like, "Well, I'm getting fired. I'm getting fired, I'm getting fired." That's true.

Erika Eakins: 19:01

Amber DeVilbiss. If you don't follow Amber DeVilbiss, I'll put her link in the comments.

Maril Vernon: 19:06

You're missing out

Erika Eakins: 19:07

She's amazing and she will be on episodes with us.

Maril Vernon: 19:11

She will. It was true. Most women are like, "That's me. I constantly think if my manager cancels my one-to-one three times in a row." Really, it's just that he's like, "You're on autopilot. You're my rockstar child. I don't need to worry about you." But I'm like, "I'm getting fired. I'm getting fired," like this, it's a thing. So how do we combat that mindset? How do we as women, how do we as millennials, because we had a bias against us, and how will you as Gen Z combat that mindset? Some things you can do to do that. In my opinion, make yourself replaceable. I know you're integral and you're good at your job, but document your job, automate your job, optimize your job, and make it so that anyone can come in behind you so you can take a vacation. So you can take a promotion and move up. They'll know that function is gonna be satisfied, just like you were doing it. And people will say, "Well, isn't that my job security? Aren't I just giving away my secret sauce?" No. You're giving away the secret sauce so that you don't have to stay there, someone else can stay there. They're like, "Wow, Erika made this job so that a monkey could walk in and do it. Beautiful. We'll hire a monkey and Erika can go do something better." That's usually what I've experienced. I've never experienced someone who got fired because they made their job better and they were like, "We don't need you now." That's just me though. So what about you guys? What do you recommend as a good strategy to combat?

Nathalie Baker: 20:15

I think your advice was very excellent. Make yourself replaceable. I started to do that and the minute I did, I was like, "Oh, okay, now I can move up and move into what I wanna do." I've always told my people, if you don't wanna do something anymore, make sure that you document it so that you can teach somebody else how to do it so you can just hand it to them and let them do the thing you don't wanna do anymore. Yeah. But at the same time, also just reminding yourself that. Look around. Look around and see the performance of everybody else. If you're still the top performer and you're not being paid for it, then it's time to move on. Like you have to look and evaluate, am I the person that is holding this whole thing together? And if so, why is that still the case when I've made myself replaceable? I've made sure the documentation was in place. If that's still the case, then maybe it's time to move on.

Maril Vernon: 21:08

If you're the biggest fish in the pond, find a new pond where you're the smallest fish so you can learn more. You'll never learn more if you're at the top of the totem pole forever. Excellent advice. Erika.

Erika Eakins: My biggest advice: 21:18

don't be a pushover, but don't be confrontational. If you've ever seen the movie Horrible Bosses, the first one, the guy he is a complete pushover. He's supposed to get this promotion and then the guy, the manager at the end just says, "Well, I'm gonna consume all this stuff, but look at what I did. I made you more productive." Do not let them push you over. Don't be a pushover. Don't forget who you are because somebody else is trying to make you that who they want to be. Speak up, make sure you know your stuff. And then I agree with the make yourself replaceable stuff.

Nathalie Baker: 22:00

Can I throw something in here? Do not take on more responsibilities without more pay? Don't do it just don't.

Erika Eakins: 22:07

Oh yeah.

Nathalie Baker: 22:08

A lot of companies will say, "We want you to prove yourself. We want you to prove that you're capable of doing this job." If you didn't think I was capable, you wouldn't be offering me the opportunity you're offering me. So do not take on more responsibility without more pay. The minute they start talking about wanting to promote you up, you say,"Well, where's the promotion at? Where's that raise at? Where's that money at?" Because it's there.

Maril Vernon: 22:31

Yeah. All you'll prove to them is that you're willing to do the work of two people for one salary. They'll absorb that until you're doing the work of five people for one salary. And if you don't think that's true, and then people are like, "Well, won't I be in a position then to like tell them, "Oh, well you'll need two people to replace me."" And guess what? A lot of the times they'll let you go and they'll hire three people at three times your salary to replace you. Yeah. They don't see that you guys. I just talked to a manager who's like, I'm sick of fighting that uphill battle on behalf of my people. My management won't see it every single time, they'll let that person go for what? 50-60K more a year? We end up hiring someone else at 90 to 100K year instead of giving that person a raise, and now they have to be trained up as well. So in our opinion, not an effective strategy. It might work for some people. I don't recommend it.

Nathalie Baker: 23:14

Well even if you're paying the new person less, you're still letting that experience that has come up and gained the knowledge and had the turn up time, like you're still paying them for that time to learn it and learn up. Like a lot of times I've seen companies, they'll let somebody go cuz they wanna raise and they're like, "Well, we're not willing to pay that raise." They'll let them go and they'll hire somebody entry-level and it's like,"Oh, okay, well good job guys!" You're just hurting yourselves at the end of the day.

Erika Eakins: 23:42

The other thing with that is if you apply for a job within your company or you get promoted, you will get an answer that, "Oh, we, you know that you should be making 20% more." But they'll say, "Oh, if you're promoted from within all we could do is like 5%." That is somewhat true, but it's actually not true. If they hire somebody externally, they'll have to pay way more. Then that is the company backing you into a corner of being paid less and you're letting it happen. So don't let them push over on you. If they don't wanna do it, then don't take the promotion because like we said, don't take more responsibilities for less pay. It's the same thing.

Nathalie Baker: 24:19

At the end of the day, you always have to do a fair market evaluation of yourself and your skills. Every year I do one. Every year on my anniversary date, I do one. And if they're not offering me the same amount, what I can make on fair market value, I will leave that company. I'm not overly loyal. The only person I'm loyal to is myself at the end of the day.

Maril Vernon: 24:38

Well, you're the only person who will fight for you.

Nathalie Baker: 24:40

Exactly.

Erika Eakins: 24:41

If you quit and go back, they have to hire you at the higher salary.

Maril Vernon: 24:44

I was literally told once quit and come back, quit for a month and come back. I was like that's silly, not gonna do it.

Erika Eakins: 24:52

No, that's toxic.

Nathalie Baker: 24:53

I'm just moving on. At that point I'll just move on to a company that will appreciate me from the beginning.

Maril Vernon: 24:59

I think collectively we can agree if you wanna do that and come in and succeed, you wanna fight that bias that you have against yourself and that leadership might have, because again, it might not be malicious, they might just see you as like they don't know how to replace you. They don't even know where to start. So you can start doing yourself some favors. Document your job, document what you do, and document how you do it. Make yourself replaceable, make your skills repeatable and scalable. Advocate for yourself. Going back to Erika's point advocate, but don't do it in a contentious manner. All you're gonna do is burn bridges, when you need to build bridges. It's much more valuable to get someone on your side who will fight for you. Again, going back to that brand, right? There's gonna be higher management conversations you're not a part of where your manager's either going to the mat for you to get that raise or buckling because he's not sure if you're worth it. So I think we can agree. Those are the takeaways this time?

Erika Eakins: 25:51

Yeah.

Nathalie Baker: 25:52

Yeah!

Maril Vernon: 25:53

Okay, great. Well, I think this has been a wonderful episode. If you resonated with any of this message, we're sorry. We're sorry that you found yourself there, and if you haven't yet worked yourself out of it, as always, we say this every episode, but we genuinely mean it, DM any single one of us. DM Erika, DM me, DM Nathalie. We're willing to help you. We'll help you work your way out of your wet. We will take time to learn your story and recommend some things that we think you should do. You can ping us for advice just about any time. We love you. We thank you so much for coming to hang out with us. If you liked what you heard today, please remember to hit that like share and subscribe button. We, The Queens, really appreciate it. It helps us get our message out and help more women, and we will see you next week for yet another episode of The Cyber Queens.