Maril Vernon: 0:14

Welcome back to another episode of The Cyber Queens Podcast.

We are your hosts: 0:17

Maril, Erika, and Nathalie. I'm Maril Vernon, all things red team.

Erika Eakins: 0:21

I'm Erika Eakins, technical salesperson.

Nathalie Baker: 0:25

And I'm Nathalie Baker, All Things Blue team. And today we have Sarah Abrams with us.

Sara Abrams: 0:30

I'm Sarah. I am a cybersecurity professional, working my way into the cybercrime investigation side of cybersecurity.

Maril Vernon: 0:40

Awesome. Sarah, tell us a little bit about how long have you been in cyber? Where did you come from? What made you wanna get into it? Since our mission here is to try and inspire people to want to join us, so I would love to hear what inspired you to wanna get into cyber in the first.

Sara Abrams: 0:53

Yes, absolutely. So just like the beautiful queens on this podcast and a lot of the listeners, I'm a career changer. I got into cybersecurity about two years ago. I've really made my career advocacy and shaped all of my occupations around that, so I was a social worker for a while. Then I moved into investigations of a surveillance company and I just felt like cybersecurity, really naturally fits into that. As somebody who wants to advocate for marginalized populations, especially children and those who like human trafficking and like really like to get into that side of it.

Maril Vernon: 1:30

I love to hear that. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We're happy to have you joining our ranks heroes: women working in cyber. Today's topic we are gonna talk about, since it is ADHD Awareness Month, and we are all about being neurodiverse we are talking about undiagnosed ADHD. In cyber and how it contributes to how it contributes job performance, how it influences your career development, your interests or disinterests in developing technical skills and things of that nature. So with that, we are gonna go to our resident ADHD, kidding. We're gonna go over to Nathalie. Nathalie, what what is ADHD for those who are unaware?

Nathalie Baker: 2:06

If you're unaware, ADHD is very much classified by being a disorder of the central nervous system that's usually characterized by conflict in three areas of your brain, your hyperactivity, your attention, or inattentiveness and impulsivity. So those three different areas in your brain being severely impacted can cause a lot of other issues in your life. And the symptoms are very much different between boys at a certain age, and then girls like where it's diagnosed, when it's diagnosed, that kind of stuff. It's all different depending on typically, what gender you are. It will present in different ways and there's different reasons why for that. I know, Sarah, you had a very interesting question, so let's go back to you and you can ask your question.

Sara Abrams: 2:55

Personally I was diagnosed as an adult because for a long time I didn't wanna admit that I had attention issues because this is a highly stigmatized disorder or, however you wanna refer to it. And then I came to find out that you guys have ADHD as well and I was curious as to how you came to find out. Your co-host had ADHD. What brought it up in conversation, why you didn't disclose it before?

Nathalie Baker: 3:26

So I'm a very open person about my ADHD because I've personally had so many times where I've gone into a doctor's and I've had a nurse look at me and say, "Oh my God, you are highly functioning with ADHD. Thank God my granddaughter just got diagnosed or my grandson just got diagnosed, or my nephew or my niece just got diagnosed and I've been sitting here wondering are they stupid or something?" The one time it happened, I looked at the nurse and I was like, "If that's how you feel about it, imagine how they feel about it right now because they're more confused and frustrated about it." So for me, I've always just been very open about it because it is who I am and is a part of me, and I think that I bring a lot more with it than like more positive with it than the negative with it. So I'm just always been very open about it.

Erika Eakins: 4:16

I actually was diagnosed in 2019, so as an adult I am now 40, so I have lived with this my entire life and I've never been diagnosed and the way that I actually found out that. I needed to be, looked at or checked out was I have a aunt who is going through this with one of her children. They're going through, all the diagnosis and behavior and everything like that. She was telling me about the symptoms that her daughter's having. She said I don't wanna be rude, but this was you when you were a kid. She married my uncle when she was when I was nine. So she's been in my life for a really long time and it made me start to think In school and just the way that I am on, squirrel, like day to day. They say that all sales people have ADHD, but that's not always true. We're just all over the board. But her diagnosing her daughter with autism and ADHD is what made me go get checked out because she identified it in me. Cherise, thank you. I love you. I have been treated, since 2019 and I can tell you my performance and my life is a hundred percent better.

Nathalie Baker: 5:33

I also got diagnosed as an adult, so I was 19 by the time I was getting diagnosed, which isn't like true adulthood, but you're borderline adult. Like I'd gotten through high school with just using my own coping mechanisms to get through, and then came back and was like, You know what? You know what it's like to form a sentence for me, And I told this to my doctor. I was like, Putting a sentence together is like putting together a jigsaw puzzle and not being able to find the different pieces that you need when you need them.

Maril Vernon: 6:08

You ever start a sentence, you're not really sure where it's going, but you just finish it anyway.

Sara Abrams: 6:13

Every day of my life.

Maril Vernon: 6:15

All the time.

Nathalie Baker: 6:15

Who's the guy from King of the Hill, like that guy that like talks like all?

Sara Abrams: 6:20

Boom Hower.

Nathalie Baker: 6:22

Yes. That's who I feel like sometimes. Sometimes I'll be talking and I'm like, "Oh my God, this is all coming out encrypted. They don't understand what I'm saying because it needs to be in plain text for them to understand."

Maril Vernon: 6:32

Wait, a cyber the crap outta that. Nathalie, I love you for that. For my own answer I will say I'm not currently diagnosed with ADHD, but I'm pretty sure I'm undiagnosed to come to the topic of the hour, I think I'm one of those operating in cyber who is undiagnosed. I've never really been open about mental health. We're not really open about it in my family. My sister and I always say it ran in our family until it ran into us. She and I are the stopping wall for breaking those stigmas. But I was just watching TikTok one day and I realized, and I came across a bunch of obviously TikTokers, that TikTok about it. How many times can I say TikTok in one sentence? And they're like, You might have it if do you do this? You might have ADHD. Are you like this? You might have it. I'm like, "Oh my God, that's me. Oh my God, that's me. And that and that." After talking about it with Nathalie like the daydreaming and some of the symptoms I guess that can manifest for women specifically daydreaming, anxiety, along with that depression ditziness, silliness, scatter-brainedness and perfectionism. I'm definitely not all of those, but I'm a big daydreamer. I literally can't focus on watching a movie unless I'm doing three things at the same time. I will take in the movie better if I'm multi-tasking than if I'm focusing on the movie. I'll tune it out and think of dozen other things.

Nathalie Baker: 7:48

When I was a kid, my mom's go-to phrase was "Earth to Nathalie, Earth to Nathalie."

Maril Vernon: 7:54

My family calls me a space cadet. I'm a space cadet. So I just kind of realize I probably have that and I have been meaning to go in. I'm so horrible. I have been meaning to go in and ask if I could like, have whatever assessment done, because I'm pretty sure I am, and I'm like wondering, have I gone my whole life with this condition? And I could have gotten coping mechanisms or gotten medications that could have made my life easier, could have helped me focus better. I will say I'm a highly productive person. I'm a go-getter of a person. Everyone knows me for my tenacity, but that might all be a manifestation of the fact that I am undiagnosed ADHD. And I will say when I was getting evaluated from my top secret clearance, you have to do like a giant psychology test. It's literally like a thousand questions. And I came out of that with a 99 percentile anxiety level, and they were like, "we don't care what you do. We don't care if you do yoga. We don't care if you drop a class, but you need to do something and bring that down because we can't give you... if you're kind of a security concern." I'm like, "Oh snap!"

Sara Abrams: 8:56

Don't you love that? In this case I guess it's necessary, but I went through my teenage years and even, yeah, middle school and through high school knowing that something wasn't totally right. I just, I couldn't focus. I would procrastinate. I would do my assignments at the last minute, especially if I wasn't interested in it. You couldn't get me to like even look at the instructions for it and then got to college. Fun fact I have changed my major five times. I have been to six different schools prior to being diagnosed, but once I was diagnosed, I was able to finish my associate's degree in that same year. I found my passion, found the major changed the major switch. Got my bachelor's shortly after, so I wish I had said something and spoken up sooner when I was younger, just because, I imagine all of the skills I'd have now if I had started in middle school.

Nathalie Baker: 9:56

Learning your brain will really change the whole game. If you have ADHD, just learning how your brain functions differently than everybody else's brain, cuz you have to think, it's like running a super computer on a laptop battery with an invalid graphics card that's just not working.

Maril Vernon: 10:14

With like a pie's worth of RAM. Four gigs is all., Nathalie Baker: Your processor A filing system? What's that? It doesn't even exist. When I was in college, I had to do a presentation on it, and that's how I explained it. Then I did a lot more research into why my brain is the way it is. Why? Why did it go so long undiagnosed? And then when I started to make those connections as to why most women don't get diagnosed until much later in life. I know plenty of women who they, all of us, look at us like none of us got diagnosed when we were kids. Imagine that Still not. Nathalie Baker: One of the major they're not the hyperactive necessarily. They're usually more the inattentive. Like a boy banging his head off of his desk is going to be 10 times more distracting and more going to catch your attention than a girl who's just staring out the window or chatting a little bit more during certain times of the day. When you're talking about inattentitiveness, you also have to think about your time management skills. I'm sometimes really great at time management if I over prioritize my time management and then other times not so much. I'm a procrastinator, I work well under pressure. You give me a deadline, I'm gonna meet it. A lot of us spend so long masking it. Masking it to where nobody can see it.

Sara Abrams: 11:46

Like I'm not sure that I. Was even good at the last minute, like under pressure. Taking actions under pressure, and I think I naturally evolved into that because I just refused to try and explore what was wrong with me prior to that. Or not even what's wrong, but just like what's different about me. I'm coming to appreciate this term, neurodivergent versus neurotypical because it doesn't make ADHD seem as stigmatized. It doesn't make it seem like it's a disorder. I'm honestly upset that they've done away with ADD because, like you said, Nathalie, there's ways that it manifests differently in all of us. I don't feel like I'm hyperactive necessarily, but do I have problems paying attention? Absolutely.

Maril Vernon: 12:35

For me, I feel like I'm like Nathalie, this is why I think I'm undiagnosed. I do such good work under pressure. I'll procrastinate. This task could take me 15 minutes and I know it'll take me 15 minutes. Because of that, I'll put it off. And I'm like, I have 20 minutes to get it done. I'll still get it done on time cuz I know it'll only take me fifteen minutues. But do I just do it? No. I wait till the very last minute and I get it done and it's beautiful and it's to expectations and everything else, but I'm like, why didn't I just do that a week ago? Why do I do this to myself? I don't understand. But I think that's so important.

Erika Eakins: 13:05

I I do it as well.

Maril Vernon: 13:07

We're not saying girls are better than boys, but I think it's important to note how it manifests differently. Nathalie said, young boys super hyperactive running around, kind of being that loud distraction. Whereas girls, we tend to not get focused on this much. It's "Oh, she's just checked out, or, Oh, she's on autopilot, or, Oh, she seems like she's fine. Not as not fine as that kid." So I think for me, I just haven't gotten diagnosed because I just haven't thought to do it. I was like, "This just must be normal. This just must be how everybody is. Everybody's this way. I just realized later on, Oh no. No, you're different."

Sara Abrams: 13:39

Well, good for you for having such a high self-esteem.

Nathalie Baker: 13:43

Because girls are such perfectionists already, like we are all perfectionists. And because it's also a portion of having ADHD in girls, it's one of those symptoms that is not necessarily present in a boy. You're able to mask it. What they said was K-6, you don't have a hard time masking it because you don't need a hundred percent efficiency to be able to get through your classes. The school work is so much easier, but then once you're moving on to those higher grades, that's when you're changing your classes more frequently. Your teachers are not able to see you as much throughout the day, so that's why it goes so unnoticed. But at seventh grade, my grades plummeted. I had straight A's all up through until seventh grade, and my grades just plummeted to the ground. And my mom would be like, " I know you're not stupid, but like your brothers could do this with their eyes shut and they didn't even have to study." And I was like, Well, I'm not them. Maril Vernon: No, that's true. I couldn't even do a map assignment. You remember like in middle school, they'd make you draw a map of France. If you're learning about France. I literally would have to get every single coastline like I was fricking Cortez, like I was a cartographer and I would just not finish cuz it would not be perfect. And I'm like, no.

Whereas guys are just: 14:57

France is done. How do you do that? They would give me an alternate assignment cuz I could not turn in drawing assignments for the life of me. I would over perfection them way too hard.

Erika Eakins: 15:12

I think for me as well, a change of environment helped me realize that I was a little different than my peers. In 2019 when I got diagnosed, I moved to Colorado from Illinois. I was 37. I lived there my entire life and then boom, I come to Colorado and I'm like, there is something different about me. And the whole last minute stuff. I have two master's degrees. I would wait until the night that it was due, cause I'd have to get it in by midnight and jam out that 12 page paper. It was insane. I'm a procrastinator. I still wait till the last minute, even though I don't have to really do that anymore. But I feel I work under pressure really well. In cyber it's always changing and it's always fast paced and that is one of the reasons I think I love it so much is because my personality and my ADHD fits well here. Because it's always something new.

Maril Vernon: 16:09

I did 90% of a 24 month masters in five months, and it took me three months to do literally my CEH. Literally did most of the curriculum super fast and then was like, No.

Nathalie Baker: 16:24

When you go into a certification test, I don't know if you know this, but most places that do testing, they're supposed to offer you earplugs. I also request to be facing not a window, like to be facing away from a window, if there's a window in the testing center because I have taken a certification test before and failed because I was watching some squirrel out the window, and I spent three quarters of the time

Maril Vernon: 16:49

literal squirrel

Nathalie Baker: 16:51

watching that squirrel. But the one time I was in a testing center that didn't have any windows at all and there was a tornado going through it, they were wondering if they should even pull me off the test and let me go hide out somewhere. And they were like, "Well, she's safe in there. There's no windows. So we'll leave her go until the tornado actually rolls through." And I didn't hear anything.

Maril Vernon: 17:14

Yeah, that's a great segue to bring it back into some technical. So we kind of had written down that because a lot of times in women specifically, it'll manifest in a detachedness from focusing. Like an aloofness. So there might be a lack of interest in learning technical skills, but it is coincidental that all of us are saying when we came to tech, when we came to cyber, we really felt like it not encouraged, but it married well with our ADHD tendencies and the way we naturally are.

Sara Abrams: 17:43

I fell in love.

Maril Vernon: 17:44

Yeah, absolutely.

Sara Abrams: 17:45

I avoided tech like the plague.

Maril Vernon: 17:48

Why?

Sara Abrams: 17:49

Because to me it was too hard. And I really just wanna say this just for, for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, I just have to get this out. No offense to anybody, but there's such a stereotype with like tech people. It's a very cerebral profession, and who watches Big Bang Theory?

Maril Vernon: 18:11

All of us!

Erika Eakins: 18:12

We've all watch it.

Sara Abrams: 18:13

There's a lot of Sheldons right in tech, and it's just the way, the condescending nature in which people will speak to you in tech. It's discouraging. I already had this external focus of control, right? I look to other people for validation because I maybe wasn't so much aloof, but I had extreme imposter syndrome. I felt like everybody else was smarter than me already. So to now wanna go into this field that is male dominated and knowing how condescending people can be, I was like, no way. Then I discovered myself, right? After being diagnosed and being treated and I got this confidence where I was just like, "man, whatever. I know I'm smart and I can work through this." I just imagined what I could have been or where I could have been if I started in middle school or taken advantage of any STEM program, although they didn't exist back then, but now. I think middle schoolers can beat me in the CTF at this point.

Maril Vernon: 19:21

They absolutely could. There are gonna be middle school, fifth grade CTF teams killing it, rivaling China teams. That's what we always say. We always say our number one regret is that we didn't get in sooner and we didn't start sooner. I wish I'd started in high school, like I only started three years ago. Imagine where I could be today. Well, I just gotta say, you get my favorite guest award because I so love hearing exactly how you thought these things, which is what we're assuming people think about cyber and about tech and the people and women who work here. And I think we do a good job breaking those stereotypes.

Sara Abrams: 19:52

I'm so sorry, but like my friends, cause I've shown everyone your podcast. I've shown all my friends- Nathalie Baker: We love you. I love you guys and I'm so glad to be on. But some of my guy friends were like,"They don't look like they're in tech." So to your point, it's just what about me? And they're just like, no, cause we don't have glasses or we don't look nerdy, but it's man, let's change the face of it.

Nathalie Baker: 20:21

I've got my glasses right here.

Erika Eakins: 20:23

Well, and I've said this on a couple episodes since you've listened. We're not the typical white male in the industry. That is really what the industry was at some point, it's gotten a lot better. So you're right that you don't, we don't look like them. None of us do. Maril Vernon: But you're also right, work in tech, like institutions like Hollywood are perpetuating the idea that everyone who works in tech is a Sheldon, a Leonard, a Howard,or a Raj, right? We all must be socially inept in some way, or like super weird in some way. Can't talk to normal people in some way. Penny and I, we'd be best friends. We'd be going out for brunch and then I would be hacking that night.

Nathalie Baker: 21:08

The Bernadette types in there.

Maril Vernon: 21:10

What they don't realize is most of my tech friends who work with me in cyber look more like Penny, Bernadette and Amy then they do Sheldon, Raj, and Howard. So I love that. Thank you so much for helping us to break that perception because we are working really hard at it. I can't remember where I was going next.

Sara Abrams: 21:28

ADHD, there it is.

Nathalie Baker: 21:32

At it's finest. I feel the reason why I didn't wanna get into tech or why I didn't think I could get into tech was because I was such the daydreamer, my head was always in the clouds. I really never saw how that innovation could really help fuel my career forward or fuel an organization forward. It became, can I learn the tech because I can barely read the jargon on the page? Like at a certain point I would just be. Now it's time to shut the book because I am ready to go pull my hair out right now because I can't remember what each anagram was.

Sara Abrams: 22:14

Or did you find yourself reading the same page over and over again and not retaining that information?

Maril Vernon: 22:21

I told you that's why it's time to close the book and walk away for a minute. We just talked about that in a previous episode where I was like, you know when I realized I'm reading the same line over and over and I'm like, "I just read the same line five times. I have no idea what it says. I'm done with this book for today." You have to know when to put it down and walk away cuz you're not receiving any new information. It's an exercise in futility. Bringing that back to learning technical skills, so how do you guys think your ADHD encouraged or supported or worked against your interest in tech and gaining those technical skills even in studying for certifications? I'm the type of person who I have to learn container technology now for my new job. I purchased a course. I purchased it four months ago, and don't get me wrong, I've been really busy at work. But I haven't started. Every day I guilt myself. It's setting me four month check and reminders and I'm like, "I am such a piece of crap cuz I haven't started this course and I know I need to start it." I know once I start it I'll go down the rabbit hole, but I'm like, "why haven't I started this course yet?" I know once I do, I'll eat it up nonstop. It's like a video game. I won't come up for air until I'm done with it, but I don't know what my problem is. So like I think it definitely influences how I study. I could do it all at once very concentrated. In a four or five day bootcamp, cuz if you give me a year to do it, it won't get done not until the last two weeks and then it'll all get done.

Nathalie Baker: 23:42

I'm the opposite. If I try to retain too much information all at once, I won't retain it. So I have to spread it out. I literally have to rewrite the entire book all over again because that's how I remember is muscle memory. That's the only way I can remember anything. Every certification test I take, I have about 500 to a thousand flashcards that I go through just to memorize how to take the test. Because to me, taking the test is a whole test in itself. It's not just can you memorize the information? But now you have to reverse engineer the tests to actually make sure that you're answering the right questions and you're taking the time to make sure that the question that you're being asked is the question that you're actually answering. Because certification tests are notorious for throwing in those stupid, like which one is not this?

Sara Abrams: 24:34

I love your brain like I love this and this is why neurodivergency is fantastic in this field. Cause you just think differently and you bring something to a group of neurotypical people, right? It's so helpful and it's just that different perspective that can fuel a team forward. So I love the way you think. Maril Vernon: I have a As a bunch of ADHD oriented females test-taking style. Like you get three hours to take the test? Do you get it all done in 30 minutes or do you take the whole three hours and go over your questions two to three times. Which team are you?

Nathalie Baker: 25:13

It depends on what test I take. See, like Cisco, they won't let you, They won't let you go back on any of the questions that you previously went through. So you can't recheck your questions at all. You only get one time through and so you better be paying close attention. Cisco certs are the bane of my existence, whenever I'm taking them. Cause I'm just like,

Maril Vernon: 25:33

Darn you, Cisco.

Nathalie Baker: 25:35

Why must we be the way that we are right now, Cisco?

Maril Vernon: 25:40

Well, they were just breached, so they're no longer special. Just kidding Cisco.

Erika Eakins: 25:43

Who isn't being breached.

Maril Vernon: 25:45

It's all of us.

Nathalie Baker: 25:47

But if I'm taking a test where I can check off like certain ones, I will check certain questions, if I wasn't a hundred percent sure going right into the question. I don't like to overthink cuz I'm an overthinker. I don't wanna overthink the question. So if I know the answer right off the top of my head, I'll reread the question one more time and make sure that the question that I'm answering is actually the question I'm being asked, and then I move on. But if I'm even a little bit questionable on what that answer was, I will check it to come back to it after I'm done with the test.

Maril Vernon: 26:21

So Nathalie takes all three hours,? Nathalie Baker: I usually do not. I usually only can do it for about an hour and 15 minutes is usually what my test taking time is.

Sara Abrams: 26:34

To that point, I'm an overthinker as well. I'm a little bit of both. So like I'll get through it at my own pace if I'm confident about the answer, like done, like check, next, and then I'll go back and I'll just rethink , like every single question, if I can go back. So like I've taken a lot of CompTIA exams and sometimes they let you go back. I'm pretty sure you can mark it and go back,

Maril Vernon: 27:01

Just not on the practical questions, I believe once you do a practical question, like a lab question.

Sara Abrams: 27:06

I will take the remaining time, even if it's two hours left, and check over every, and think it through. I mean it's just the overthinking. They say you should always trust your like first instinct on a question, but I do not follow that rule.

Nathalie Baker: 27:24

I've failed certification tests because I changed answers. I went back and changed an answer, and then I was like, if I would've just stuck with my gut instinct, I would've never failed that test.

Maril Vernon: 27:36

And the overthinking comes full circle. I'm the person who blows right through it. I usually don't test for longer than 30 minutes. I either know it or I don't. So I get through everything I definitely know I'm usually left with 10% at the end, and I don't overthink on those. What I will say is I tend to sometimes not answer the right question. If it's like Bob and Jill work at a company, they're trying to implement additional measures, which, I'll like, Oh, it's a firewall, but it was like, what attack was this? Oh, firewall's not attack, a firewall's, a mitigation. So I just need to read the key, but I will keyword pick out and answer keyword, pick out and answer. So I get through the test, like I literally don't test longer than like 30, 40 minutes effort, even my security plus exam. I went back over all those questions twice and it still only took me like 45 minutes. I was like, I feel really bad. I'm always the first person to walk out of the SAT and I'm like, "I feel bad. I'm all done. You're not done. Maybe I'll just sit here and wait for someone else to be done."

Erika Eakins: 28:33

When I take the SEC plus, maybe I need to come talk to you first because when I take that test, I'll key word pick. And since I skim, I get stuff wrong, but there are certain instances where I will go back, but most of the time I just blow through it because I have to get it done and be done.

Sara Abrams: 28:53

Sorry. I'm just blown away. You guys don't feel compelled to like, go back and check it over and be sure?

Erika Eakins: 29:00

If I do it gives me anxiety and then the overthinking sets in and I know I'm an overthinker.

Maril Vernon: 29:08

I'll do what Nathalie did and I'll overthink my answers and I'll talk myself into other answers and then where I was super sure going in, now I'm unsure, so I can't do that to myself. I either know it or I don't.

Sara Abrams: 29:19

I'm sure I have plenty of certs to go. So I'll try that. I'm gonna try that my next exam.

Erika Eakins: 29:23

Trust yourself.

Nathalie Baker: 29:24

It takes a while to condition yourself into doing that, but when you go with your first instinct, as long as you're answering the right question, that's all you really have to worry about. Cause you either know it or you don't at that point.

Maril Vernon: 29:35

Don't do what I do, don't like, pick out a defense when it's asking for an attack. Or don't pick like an exploit when it's asking for a control. Pay attention to the question.

Sara Abrams: 29:44

And I try to like reason all of my answers like, Oh, but it could be this cause...

Maril Vernon: 29:51

just trust yourself. Trust that you drilled it. And like for me, I have to drill it. And when I drill it, I know it. And when I know I know it, I know I know it. And when I don't, I'm like, I don't know. This is my best guess. Might as well just take.

Erika Eakins: 30:00

As a woman, your in your first instinct is usually correct. It's like when you catch somebody cheating and you go with that gut and then you find it and you're like, Yes.

Sara Abrams: 30:13

That's right. Listen up, men.

Erika Eakins: 30:16

Well, in an interview, Maril, she broke down. There ain't no better detective than a woman that's been cheated on. And it's usually the same way with the test.

Sara Abrams: 30:27

That's a good point. You know what? That's solid. Nathalie Baker: The vendors that will will take out the actual like experienced portion, show us that you can do this skill, like the hands on portion. You are not nuerodivergent friendly at all. Because here's my thing, you're testing me on something. If I'm taking my CCNA, you wanna know if I can actually look at a firewall, look at routes, and figure out different commands to run to get different information for you. When you take that portion that practical portion out of the test, you are really hurting neurodivergent people. Because now we have to go through A, B, C, or D, and sometimes it's A and B, and sometimes it's C and D, and sometimes it's ABC and not D, and sometimes it's all the above. Now you have to figure out which one specifically, and those are the worst questions to have to answer.

Maril Vernon: 31:26

Yeah. It's like giving someone like us, a true or false question. Well, it could be true with this and it could be false with this. So don't do that to AP kids, which is like all of us. All right. We are coming up on time. I am loving this episode so much. I wish you could go on forever, but it, we are coming up on time, so we're gonna bring it around to final takeaways. I know we did do quite a bit of going off on tangents in this episode, but I love this episode so much. So as we go into final takeaways, if you wanna relate it back to anything about identifying common symptoms of ADHD in yourself and or how you can apply that in learning technical skills or developing yourself as a cyber professional. Let's try and keep that lens with it. We'll have our guests go first, Sarah.

Sara Abrams: 32:06

Well, this was a true ADHD episode though, right? All the tangents. I'm incredibly tangential and I have so much to say about this. Okay, let me think on it. Come back to me, Circle back.

Maril Vernon: 32:20

Okay, we'll circle back, Nathalie.

Nathalie Baker: 32:25

So my final takeaways would be that there's nothing wrong with having ADHD. It can work to your benefit just as much as it's an obstacle for you. If you learn how your brain works, you're gonna be able to work it into your favor a lot more often then if you're just flying blind and being frustrated all the time. So a really great book, and if you're interested in learning more about. A really great book out there, You Mean I'm Not Dumb, Lazy, or Crazy? I forget who it's written by, but we will link it. But that is one of my favorite books because it breaks it down and it's so entertaining to read that you don't wanna put the book down.

Maril Vernon: 33:03

I need that book. Don't be me. That's Nathalie's take away, don't be Maril! Erika.

Erika Eakins: 33:11

My final takeaway is do not self-diagnose yourself. Web MD, Google, they are great for searching, but they are not a medical diagnosis. If you feel that you may have trouble focusing or symptoms that you've heard of ADHD. Go to your doctor, start with your MD. That's where I started. They will point you in the right direction and then you can get taken care of. Please, if you are ADHD or ADD, come to cyber because honestly, this is the only career field that I was able to love. I hated everything else I did in my life.

Nathalie Baker: 33:46

Also, reach out to us if you have questions.

Maril Vernon: 33:51

Sarah, are you ready or shall I go?

Sara Abrams: 33:53

I'm ready. Don't let the stigma stop you. That's what I'm gonna say about it. It is becoming more normalized than you may think. In fact, I'm gonna shout someone out. Sarah Kelly is an ADHD mindset coach that I spoke with recently, and she's starting somewhat of a community. For women who were diagnosed later in life or just, adult diagnosed women, right? Because a lot of us didn't wanna say anything, so don't let that stigma stop you. There are STEM programs, whatever it is that you're interested in, the resources are out there. You're your own worst enemy if you don't look into it. This is me encouraging you. I'm speaking right to Gen Z and Gen Alpha. Don't be like us, just speak up. Just go for it seriously, because there's more people out there dealing with it than you think. I know it sounds cliche, sorry. But it's a cliche for a reason. Please don't let that stop you.

Maril Vernon: 34:58

Excellent take away. And I love that you dropped a resource too. We're gonna link all these resources we're talking about and possibly some additional ones in the notes to look out for that. My final takeaway is going to be as a parent, You know of Gen Alphas that I am looking out for these signs early. Like my daughter has trouble focusing on homework, certain homework she can blow right through. And certain homework takes us three hours to get through cuz she's gonna take frequent breaks and stuff. I am asking myself, does she have ADHD? Am I asking her to focus on something and do something she's physically not capable of doing on her own? So don't just force them to be in the trenches. Don't just force them to conform to the mold. Try and equip them with the skills and the strategies and the possibly medication they might need to set them up for success much earlier in life. I don't want her to grow up to be me. I don't want her to be 33 and possibly undiagnosed. I'm gonna go get that done. This episode has motivated me to go find out

Sara Abrams: 35:46

yay. Inspired you.

Nathalie Baker: 35:47

Yay.

Maril Vernon: 35:47

So as a parent, don't do that to them. Try to be more proactive and have it end with us and empower them moving forward. Employers, please be aware of certain things that you might be doing that alienate and give a disadvantage to neurodiverse people. I'm one of those people who is hyper productive and I was able to rise above and become successful very quickly. And I fit into just about any team. But not everybody does. You don't know if someone's neurodiverse. You don't know if they know it and they're keeping silent or if they don't know it. So be sensitive to your coworkers. Be sensitive to the people who are doing their best and who are killing it. And keep in mind, we don't need more professionals leaving cyber. We need more professionals coming into cyber. We personally hear things to that neurodiverse make some of the best cyber professionals available. If we do say so ourselves. My favorite resource is gonna be un, f u c k, your brain. We'll link that in the comments as well. It's got a longer title. Actually have it here with me. I love this book so much. Using science to get over anxiety, depression, anger, freak outs and triggers, which I have frequent problems with. Those are mine. That's how mine manifests. So we're gonna link all these things in the notes. Thank you so much for being here with us through this episode with the Cyber Queens. We know it was a longer one. We appreciate you

Sara Abrams: 36:57

Thank you so, so much for having me. Thank you.

Maril Vernon: 37:00

Thank you so much for coming on. We appreciate you. We love you. We can't wait to see you join the ranks of cyber. If you have any questions or you need some support, reach out to any one of us. We are here for you. We love you. If you thought this episode was beneficial, please subscribe and share with your friends. We would love to reach more of the Gen Z demographics, so we would really appreciate it. And with that, we will see you next week on the next episode of the Cyber Queens.